Imposter Syndrome

Imposter Syndrome is when a person feels inadequate despite their accomplishments. Not unique to the field of cybersecurity or even software development, imposter syndrome can affect any professional as they advance and grow in their area of expertise.

Matt and Izar, both seasoned security professionals, openly discuss the dichotomy between their intellectual achievements and the emotional weight of feeling like they don't belong. They touch upon the challenges of presenting at conferences, where the internal dialogue of self-doubt might be at its loudest, yet they've learned to project confidence. 

The conversation also highlights the importance of understanding one's worth, emphasizing that it doesn't stem from external validation or the opinions of others. The hosts each share personal anecdotes, such as moments when they felt most vulnerable on stage, and how they've learned to navigate these feelings over time. 

This podcast serves as a candid exploration of the imposter syndrome, offering insights and encouragement to professionals from any field who might feel the same way.

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Transcript

Chris Romeo: 0:10

Hey folks. Welcome to another episode of The Security Table. This is Chris Romeo, joined by my friends Izar Tarandach and Matt Coles. The topic we have for today is imposter syndrome. And we, we hear about this a lot in the realm of cybersecurity and we really just want to unpack it and understand what it is. And so let's get a definition going first. You guys know, I like to, I like to define things early in the process. So I mean primarily so that I know what the heck we're talking about, um, in my simple mind of, uh, understanding of whatever we're discussing at the moment. So, uh, what is, so Matt, why don't you kick it off for us. What is imposter syndrome from your perspective?

Matt Coles: 0:53

Yeah, that so, so, imposter syndrome, uh, is, I, I, for me is. A second guessing of a, of an ability. So like why are you, like, what makes you the expert or what makes you qualified, even if you have the qualifications, feeling second guessing that not having the con, not, I don't, it's not necessarily not having the confidence, but just wondering is this like, are you doing the right thing? So it's not a I, I can't give a clear definition. It's sort of the sense that one gets when they're looked to for guidance or support or or expertise, and they have the credentials. They have the credentials. Pause

Izar Tarandach: 1:51

So I,

Matt Coles: 1:52

They have the cred, they have the credentials, uh, but they, uh, may not have the confidence. Not always have the all hold on.

Izar Tarandach: 2:03

I, I think I, I, I don't think I can give a definition, but I, I, I can give you the feeling because I'm assaulted by it every single time, and I think that at some point, I, I was in one of our many congregations and. I looked to one side and I had Brooke. I looked to the other and I had Adam, and I'm going, why the hell am I here? Like, who, who, who said that I could be here? And who said that? I could say something like, what is it possibly that could put me at their level in saying the things that are in my head? And I can tell you sometimes it's debilitating, right? Sometimes, especially sometimes just before a a, a talk, for example, and this happened, uh, in, uh, OWASP Dublin. You can definitely hear on my voice in the recording that, uh, I, I'm physically like my voice is physically trembling because until you get into this, at, at least I do, until I get into the stride of things. The anxiety of why would these people stop their day to listen to me? What gives me the authority or the the right to take up time and talk about these things to them? And it doesn't matter how many times you do that, it doesn't matter how much validation. This, again, I'm, I'm talking personally just me. Doesn't matter how much validation you get. It keeps coming up to you again and again, again, again. And I spent a long time thinking about this thing and, and asking myself what, uh, what the hell is happening here? And talking to people who supposedly know about these things. And, uh, I, I, I'm very open with it because most people that I talk, talk with, they, they immediately go at, oh, you know what? I feel that too, or I feel that sometimes, or it happened to me at some point. So it, it's not a, uh, it's not a, what's it called? Not humble brag, but it, it, it's not a, oh my God, I'm not worthy thing. actually a, a, a, I won't call it a mental health issue. I, I think, but it's actually a phenomenon. A, a, a mental phenomenon that happens to people all the time in, in all careers, in all places of life. And I think that that goes back to one of our previous episodes. Only when you know enough to know how much you don't know. I think that you get assaulted by this thing. So it it, it connects to like, what's the name of the effect, uh, Don Donning Kruger, that you think that you know everything.

Chris Romeo: 4:49

Yeah.

Izar Tarandach: 4:50

Only when you are in a position where you know how much you don't know, then you can question yourself and say, why the hell do these people would be willing to listen to me.

Chris Romeo: 5:01

Mm-hmm. And so, Matt, from your perspective, if, if you're willing to share, like how does this, how does it manifest? You know, Izar gave an example of OWASP Dublin, and I was at that talk and I don't remember. I don't remember that being a reaction, and I tend to be someone who watches pe people speak. Listens to what they're saying, but I'm also watching the, just'cause I'm, I'm a student of public speaking and I, I look for things other people do that I might be able to apply to my own world or I look for things. And so I don't remember any of that. I don't remember Any hesitation in your delivery or anything? I could, I didn't perceive it from where I was sitting and I was paying attention too.

Matt Coles: 5:42

I think, I think that those of us who, who, those of us who have, have, have had episodes of Imposs, you know, of feelings of imposter syndrome. We have developed skills over time that helps to mask that, right? Or to adapt to that. So when I get senses, feelings of imposter syndrome, it's often, uh, so I'll say, you know, just being in the threat while manifesto group. So here we had, you know, big names. We had Alyssa, we had Brooke, we had Adam, you know, um, Izar, right? And, and so, uh, and you know, and so this, uh, this idea of like, well, what makes my voice valuable or, um, Is, am I gonna say something stupid, embarrassing myself and, and everyone's gonna look at me like, oh, he's the least inexperienced. You know, most inexperienced one of this crowd. So he doesn't know what he's talking about. So there's that aspect and I, but I think when it comes to like, especially conference presentations, right? I think we're. We have adapted or, or, um, cultivated a, a, a way to present without, without showing that level. Like there might be a running trend of thought in the head, but you're able to project confidence in the presentation.'cause we've done training and education, right? We've done, uh, you know, we've, we've taught at universities and, and, uh, and done corporate presentations and things like that, uh, in front of friendly crowds or not so friendly crowds. And so we've adapted those, those techniques to, to, you know, hide the, the internal dialogue to some extent. Um, but, you know, I think imposter syndrome comes in from a, it, it's, it's hard to describe it. I think is is, is our, put it best, is really what puts what puts us at the same. At the same level. Level. And, and I wanna be careful'cause we're not really at the same level. I mean, you know, Adam, Adam for example, is like the, the expert, right? He, he like effectively, um, catapulted threat modeling into the, into the, the security world.

Izar Tarandach: 7:53

Yeah.

Matt Coles: 7:53

And I'm not saying that any of the people involved with threat modeling prior that didn't do their parts. But Adam is the more recent example of that. And you know, now that, for instance, Izar and I wrote, wrote the. So threat modeling book, you know, we're, we're talked about in the same circles, and that that's a little scary, right? And, but also a little validating. But it's hard to overcome that. Well, did I, did I stumble upon that or did I, like, are my ideas valid? And it's a confi, there's some confidence building that has to happen there, right? Um, so that's, uh, I think that's the best way to look at this.

Chris Romeo: 8:35

Yeah. Just to, to give you kind of my experience, I can't. I can't remember really dealing with this, and maybe I did earlier in my career, and I'm just at a point where I just don't remember, you know, you remember the good things. You don't always remember. You remember the good things, the tough things. You don't always remember the challenging things in the

Izar Tarandach: 8:55

Oh, I wish.

Chris Romeo: 8:57

and kind of how they came together. But, you know, I, uh, I used to be deathly afraid to stand in front of a room of people and speak. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, early in my career I would not do it. I would refuse to do it. And a f a friend of mine dragged me kicking and screaming into the process of stepping out on the stage and it, throughout my time at Cisco and then le, you know, get, take, getting me to RSA the first time and, and going through that process. And for me, the, the, the thing that, that I really came to, to understand was, and, and where I really became free. Speaking in front of a group of people is when I realized I don't really care what anybody thinks about me.

Matt Coles: 9:43

Hmm,

Chris Romeo: 9:44

And it's, it's, it's may sound like a harsh thing to say, but the truth is, and you guys have done a lot of talks, a lot of different conference talks, every room of people, let's say there's a hundred people in the room, okay? 10 people are gonna think you're saying the best things on earth, and they're gonna be taking notes and they're gonna be writing everything down. 10 people are gonna think, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life, who let this person talk here. And the other 80 people, the other 80 people in the room are just gonna be like, I was there at that talk. I don't know. I don't really remember anything momentous about it or whatever. And so for me it was, it was freeing when I reached that point where, And I shouldn't say I don't care. I definitely care about, I prepare, I want to deliver great talks for people. That's my goal. Um, and you know, once in a while, maybe I get lucky and, and, and hit one, but, you know, it's, but when I realized like I'm not, my worth doesn't come from what the people in the room think about me, it was so freeing because then I was able to just be myself and. You guys know, I mean, I like to goof around and, and I like to do that from the stage now too. And once, sometimes people don't laugh at all. And that's a really awkward moment because I'm like, what is wrong with you people? Why? That was funny! Come on, get up here and listen. Um, but it was really that moment where I realized like, I just can, I can just be me. I can do my thing and some people are gonna love me. Some people are gonna hate me. Most of the people are gonna be like, I don't even remember him being there. Like, was I in the room for that?

Matt Coles: 11:11

So, so my, my first conference, my first, uh, public speaking, uh, talk that I really felt comfortable was early two or mid two thousands, I guess it was, uh, talking in front of a Fortify user, user, uh, user forum, technol technical user forum. And I got up and talked about our experiences with Fortify at the time. And, um, I was completely nervous because, uh, you know, I was, I was representing a company. My, my company we're rep. You know, here's what we did and we did some really interesting things with, with Fortify at the time. And, um, The one thing I remember is the, the crowd being very supportive, right? They were all in the same boat. And that really, that helped to get over that fear of, well, am I gonna say something wrong? Well, I can't say something wrong if it's a debate or a discussion, right? As opposed to instruction. And, and that really helped, but that wasn't, they weren't looking at looking to me for, for direction. They were looking for discussion and debate. Right. And now I have a lot of experience. Uh, my early career was with, with tech support, you know, doing tech support for, for technology products. Um, you know, had the.

Izar Tarandach: 12:34

He can say, have you tried turning it off and on in three languages?

Chris Romeo: 12:39

You knew that was coming.

Matt Coles: 12:43

Usually you have to, usually you have to kick it first. Uh, so anyhow, uh, so, you know, I always prided myself on being capable of, of, of talking to people of, I, I was very comfortable talking one-on-one and in small groups. Right. Um, uh, even today, you know, influence without authority is a very powerful thing, right? Um, but with that, the reason I that you get there is having, is projecting confidence and having, uh, the, your audience or your, your, whatever you're talking to have, have confidence in your ability. Or trust in your ability. And while it's relatively easy to project confidence, right, that those techniques for how do you do public speaking, you know, that we've learned over time, uh, the internal dialogue has to, you have to, you have to push back the internal dialogue a bit to say to like, you're constantly second guessing the statements that you're making. So that you keep the train of, of conversation going without having it go well, and at some point you're gonna say, well, I don't know. And that's okay. And you can say, I don't know, with confidence, as opposed to, I don't know, I gotta go. Like, you know, why am I here? Go talk to somebody who knows what they're doing and, and I wanna make sure, you know, obviously, you know, this is, this is a security table therapy session, to some extent. It's good to talk about these things. I think a lot of people in the security space, uh, probably suffer from this. Either they, they know it or they don't know it, uh, but that they suffer from it. Um, right. But, you know, we're experts here, right? We're recognized. We have certifications. We've done presentations that we've delivered material, both in an academic and non-academic setting. We've, we've proven that we collectively here have proven that we, we know what we're doing. We have to prove to ourselves that we're on the same stage as the people we're working with.

Izar Tarandach: 15:01

So I, I, I want to, to take a, a, take a lift on that and, and sort of start by separating things. The public speaking part, it's extremely important and everything that, that Matt said is, is completely right. I, I think that that preparation helps to, to mitigate the imposter syndrome, but that internal dialogue that Matt said that we are constantly fighting against or trying to, to shout over that, that's the bit where the anxiety leaves, right. That, that's especially for people with anxiety, that's a huge precursor. you start ask, asking yourself a lot of, uh, negative questions and, and people say that one of the, the first things that you should try is to like, reframe those questions instead of why should these people be, uh, why should I be talking to these people? You should be asking yourself, isn't it great that these people took time to come and listen to me? Because they didn't come on a, on a, on a limbo. They, they came because apparently your abstract was good enough to convince them to, to come over. And while, uh, most public, public speaking, people will say, Hey, you have to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. I, I myself, I, I don't rehearse my talks. Right? My, my new, uh, place of work, they, well not so new now. They have internal rules that if you're going to present outside, they have a team that's willing to come and listen to your rehearsal and give you pointers and everything. And to me, that that was a bit in the beginning. Now I see absolutely see the value of it, but in the beginning it was hard for me because I, I never give the same talk twice. I may say the same things, but it's never the same talk twice. I try to, to read the, the, the people, see how they're reacting. Interesting parenthesis here. One of my first talks at AppSec colleague, I'm talking and people all of a sudden take out their phones and start taking pictures, and my immediate reaction was, my fly is open. But then I noticed that note that they were actually taking pictures of the slides. So being aware of what your, what your audience is doing and, and why. I find it's extremely important. But so I, I, I think that where I was going with, with this is that I, I find, especially in my, in my, uh, personal case, that imposter syndrome is, is just like one piece of the puzzle.

Chris Romeo: 17:47

Hmm.

Izar Tarandach: 17:48

So, uh, The way that I came to, to, to work with it, not, not to solve it, but to work with it is, first of all, I accept it. It'll happen. Just wait for it to kick. Then there's the fact that, yeah, if this audience came here, it's because they see some value in what you have to tell them. Third, As Matt said, sometimes it's, it's shocking to look around at the rooms that I find myself of the people that I find myself with, and the fact that sometimes they stop talking to listen to what I have to say. And the way that I'm looking at it is I, I am not alternatively putting out something that people should just accept. I am having a huge opportunity to rent the time in the brain of a lot of very smart people. To put out my ideas and let them poke at them.

Chris Romeo: 18:45

Hmm.

Izar Tarandach: 18:47

So it's not like I'm coming down with the 10 Commandments down from the mountain. No, I'm, I'm, I'm just walking around this mountain shouting stuff and, Hey, you guys get to answer to me. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's less good, right?

Chris Romeo: 19:01

Yeah.

Izar Tarandach: 19:02

But, uh, mainly when, when, when I am presenting and when I'm with an audience and I, and I start questioning myself, why me? It's not because I know more, it's not because I, I taught more. It's just because most of the times when it comes to the q and a question, uh, to the q and a session and people start asking me things, I can actually reach back in my history and say, I've been through this and this is what happened.

Chris Romeo: 19:27

Mm-hmm.

Izar Tarandach: 19:28

it's not what I know, it's what I went through. I am now in a place, especially of actually to that. Let, let, let me be a bit honest here. I. I'm in a place of my security journey right now that a lot of people are just starting to go through now, and that has value. I can point at mines before they step on them.

Chris Romeo: 19:48

Yeah, because you've been through it, you've, you've got the experience. You've got the scars that go with getting smacked and falling on the ground, picking yourself back up. And you've, you've, that's, that's wisdom.

Izar Tarandach: 19:59

And it may not give me authority, but it gives me value.

Chris Romeo: 20:04

It gives you wisdom. Experiences that

Izar Tarandach: 20:08

It gives value.

Chris Romeo: 20:08

you've lived through is, is something that you can then reflect to the next generation. And a lot of times people are still gonna do the thing that we all did that that caused pain and they're gonna be, I don't believe you. I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Remember, well come back and talk to me after, after it blows up. And just tell me that. Just say I told you so I can say I told you so.

Matt Coles: 20:28

Well, it is, it isn't just, I guess it isn't just the, the, the prior experience that you're able to relate, right? Because you use those as anecdotes for, uh, either using as anecdotes, you use'em as direct references for, well, here's, here's some pitfalls. Watch out for them. Right? Or here's some good things that happened. Look for those, or, or make those happen. It's also that we're able to, We have, or, and I say we, not just those of us, you know, the three of us here, but, but others, uh, in this similar boat the ability to take very complex things and, and deliver it, the message in the right way to the right audience. Again, not, not making those 10 commandments kind of statements, but. Helping others put that in their, in their head, collect, you know, correlate that with other information that they have to make an, and you know, we always say making informed risk decisions, but you know, it informed decisions period. Right. That we can give them, you know, our expertise isn't just thinking of interesting ways to do things, but also. Correlating, uh, a whole lot of information and providing that in a way that makes sense to people that they can then utilize in their day to day lives. Well, at least work.

Chris Romeo: 21:54

I wanna, I wanna unpack this a little bit deeper. I wanna, I wanna ask you guys a question, um, based on your, what you've experienced. Because I real, I really don't know the answer to this. I wanna, I wanna understand from, from what you've experienced, how you would, how you, how you think about this. Like, if you break this problem down into two pieces and you say head versus heart, meaning intellectually versus what you're feeling, Intellectually, you both are very accomplished pro security professionals, your authors, your podcast hosts, okay? I worked that in podcast hosts. but you're, I mean, you're conference speakers, your, you're, all of these things. And so intellectually, if you kind of separate it, if you, if you can separate this problem and cut it in two, you intellectually say, Like, I don't have the chops to hang with the rest of these people that, that I'm hanging around with. Or is it more on the heart side of it? Like, it's more like, I feel like I'm not, I, I, I'm, I don't belong there, so like, I'm trying to, I'm just trying to unpack this and understand it in more depth.

Matt Coles: 23:07

So let me, let me give you some of the, sometime I thought that I, I get occasionally, and I don't know if it's intellectual or, or, or feeling, I guess you can think about the, the luminaries that we've been with. But think about, just think about some of the people that, that you may converse with. Um, In terms of, uh, you know, security, security experience, for instance, right? Where they have eight, you know, eight times as many certifications as you, or they spent 20 years in the, in at the NSA or have, you know, uh, a ton of experience, you know, defending nation states, uh, or, um, you know, or have built, you know, have been CISOs of major corporations. Right. They have a ton of experience, a lot of, a lot of letters after their name. A lot of, you know, maybe they have a newspaper article, you know, Bruce Schneier, you know, kind of thing, right? Um, I mean, we, I, I work with some of these people on a regular, on a regular basis, right? Some of the, my close colleagues are, are, are like this, they've worked at, you know, at CSA or, or, you know, NIST or DISO or NSA or wherever, you know, wherever else, right? And we have a need to interact on a regular, on a regular basis. And I need to be an expert, need to be an expert. And so, How do I compete with that? Like I have a master's degree, not, I have a master's degree in computer science and I wrote a book on threat modeling and I have 20 years of experience right in, in, uh, in corporate worlds.

Chris Romeo: 24:58

So that sounds like you're, it sounds like you're intellectually, it sounds like you're on both sides of the equation then. It sounds like you're kind of thinking through, like you're intellectually saying, I feel like I don't stack up against these folks, and then I feel like I don't as well is kind of what I'm taking away.

Matt Coles: 25:18

Right, but I, but I know that I, for the expertise that I have, I'm an equal, I'm a partner in this.

Chris Romeo: 25:26

Okay, so intellectually then you, so that would be the intellectual side. That's what I'm trying to get to is, is there a way to separate this, but it's not, so you're saying yes, you on paper, you can look at their resume and experience and your resume and experience and say, yeah, I belong at the table in the conversation.

Matt Coles: 25:46

Uh, yeah. Yeah, we'll go with

Izar Tarandach: 25:50

But, but look how funny it is because now, now comes like the, the outside aspect of the thing that there is a reason why. Matt and I co-author the, the book and for the

Matt Coles: 26:05

because he asked, he asked, and I said, yeah, that sounds like

Izar Tarandach: 26:07

Yeah, there's a reason why I asked and, and here's the reason. For the past, I don't know, uh, 11, 12 years, every time that I had an idea connected to, to security, that idea would not go forward. Before I went to Matt and I asked, Hey, what do you think about this? Because I see him. As the expert that he may not see himself, right?

Chris Romeo: 26:35

Hmm.

Izar Tarandach: 26:36

But that voice inside your head telling you, you're not worth it. You're not worth it. You're not worth it, okay? That thing is shouting all the time. And you know what? No, no names. We know a couple of people. One who's a very, very prominent person in our field. Who gets hit by imposter syndrome every single time that they are asked. And it, it's not something to question or to, to criticize or to keep saying, come on, you, you, you know how good you are. Just step out of it. Right? You cannot quieten that voice. It, it's not as you put, it's not. It's not an analytical process. It, it's, it's a, it's a feeling thing. And, and God knows that, you know, I'm, I'm not the most connected people to the person to, to feelings, but it is, it is, it is just something in you constantly asking you, what are you doing here now, in my experience, fighting that you can give into it. And then that's it. I'm, I'm sorry. Bye. By what I'm saying, but you're screwed because you gave up and you are not getting out of it, but you can at the same time. And, and I, I, I want to believe that that's what I do with it. You can use it to move you forward. You can use it to say, prove to yourself that you can be here. Constantly prove to yourself that you can hear that, that it can be here. Constantly ask questions, constantly say what you're thinking and expect answers because those people that you value, Those are the ones looking at your ideas and riffing back to you and telling you, Hey, you know what? There's value to this. So now you don't have to ask yourself, do I bring value? Because you have other people that you respect that are telling you, Hey, there's value in this thing.

Chris Romeo: 28:38

Hmm.

Izar Tarandach: 28:40

So again, the the choice is not to have it or not have it. The choice is how you deal with it.

Chris Romeo: 28:47

Yeah. I see. So you're, so you're, you've just kind of accepted the fact that this is going to be something you'll struggle with through your entire career, or maybe not struggle, maybe you turn it into a strength based on how you described it. Here, you're gonna turn it into a superpower.

Izar Tarandach: 29:01

That, that's the dream,

Chris Romeo: 29:02

You're reflecting. You're reflecting through it to your own success because you're using it to push yourself further.

Izar Tarandach: 29:09

and I want to believe that it also makes me better at communicating with people,

Matt Coles: 29:13

Yeah,

Izar Tarandach: 29:13

because now in order

Matt Coles: 29:14

it. Sorry. Go

Izar Tarandach: 29:17

No, no, no, no. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Matt Coles: 29:18

Well, I was just, I, I think we adapt to it, right? I think we, we, we lean into certain characteristics of our role, right? I, I mentioned earlier about influence without authority. Like that is the basis from my work. For most, for the most part, right? They're not, I'm, I'm work, I, the teams that I work with and, and the people I, I communicate with, you know, whether at work or at conferences or wherever, um, is, is really a, you know, I am, I need to be the expert, but I don't have a mandate like, you know, that's not, it's not that they have to take my word as, as as edict, right? So I approach everything as a negotiation, as a conversation. I'm there to relay information and provide experience in a way that like they have a particular way of looking at things. I'm gonna come in from a different angle to help them see it in a different way,

Izar Tarandach: 30:20

And to

Matt Coles: 30:20

bring in that and facilitate and bring in that security experience and knowledge that they need from me.

Izar Tarandach: 30:25

Yeah. Because the system itself, they know much better than we ever will. They're writing it.

Matt Coles: 30:30

Right. And so the imposter syndrome there doesn't that, that's, it doesn't come into play so much there as when it's, you know, you to a crowd or you to a,

Izar Tarandach: 30:43

To a forum like to, to a forum of equals

Matt Coles: 30:46

for, for, well,

Izar Tarandach: 30:48

Uh.

Matt Coles: 30:48

It's more interesting. I, I think it's, it's even broader than that. Um, you know, like, uh, so if you're looking at. If you start comparing yourself, if you're in a, in a position that, that you would be compared with others, that's where imposter syndrome, I think, starts to come into play.

Izar Tarandach: 31:07

It's, it's different levels of, uh, not authority, but, uh, I think that when you're on a board of directors, your opinions are much more pointed and, and, um, this is where I stand. This is where this is my position, and it's going to be very hard to move me from it. When you're in a panel with other experts. I, I think that we, at least when we do that, and, and I speak for the three of us, We come in open-minded and we say, I have my, my things to say, but you know what? I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. And many times it happened, even here in the podcast, that I came one way and I left another, or at least with questions. And, and i, I, I, I think that I, I I, I love people who go in front of an audience and present. And you can see that these people, damn, they're really good presenters. Like Chris is one, for example, he is, uh, in Dublin, his DevOps thing. It, it was a masterpiece in present, in presenting, right. The, the timing, the, the, the subject, the way that he pulled the, the, the public in the way that he riffed with everybody, like the, the back and forth. I, I sat in there like, I have no clue what he talked about because it was so much focused on how he was talking about it. On the other hand, there are people who have to like, rehearse again and again, and again, again, until they have the whole script in their, in, in their head, and. Some of them are good at it, some of them are not so good at it, but it's a way of doing it as well.

Chris Romeo: 32:40

Before, uh, just FYI, before Dublin, I had delivered that presentation probably 10 times.

Izar Tarandach: 32:46

You had to deliver, but you, you, but you didn't sit in front of the camera recording it to

Chris Romeo: 32:50

No, no, no. It was out on, it was out on the scene. But it's, I mean, the jokes are canned in that just FYI, because over time you learn which jokes hit and they just, I don't know. That's just the way my brain processes. If I

Izar Tarandach: 33:03

That That's showmanship.

Chris Romeo: 33:04

if I can get a laugh, I'll drive, I'll drive to that laugh each time.

Izar Tarandach: 33:08

So I, I, I mean, what, what I'm trying to go at is when you get that imposter syndrome Yeah. The, there are ways to fight against it. Some of them are more time consuming, some of them apparently are more, um, proven. It is something that's you, you, you like, like they say here in the, the us in the, the military, you have to embrace the suck. It's going to happen, so make peace with it, move forward or not, but don't let it stop you. That that's my, my, my closing.

Chris Romeo: 33:41

I like that. That's a good place to close. That's a good place to end this conversation. I, I don't think this is the last time we talk about this. I think we can come back around and talk about it some more. I think there's, there's more to unpack and more to more to just learn and, uh, you know,

Izar Tarandach: 33:55

Because after all, who are we to talk about this? Right?

Chris Romeo: 33:59

I knew that, I knew you could see you like canned jokes too. You like the delivery and, and set it up and that's right. So, hey folks, thanks for joining another episode of the Security Table and uh, reach out to us on LinkedIn or X if you have any thoughts on imposter syndrome, we'd love to. Learn more from what other people have experienced. And so we'll launch a couple of, uh, social posts to try to get that conversation going. So we'll talk to you again soon on the security table.